13:01 <@jono> I am going to run through some stuff for a bit and then I want to open it up to Q+A for much of the session
13:01 <@jono> hi everyone, my name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical
13:01 <@jono> a lot of people get pretty confused about what exactly my job is here to do
13:01 < siretart> berndl: well, there is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/revu/+spec/revu. But apart from that, I'm not aware of other specs. Feel free to submit some though.
13:02 <@jono> my main role is to help keep the wheels in the community rolling, help optimise how the community works, develop better ways of working, and be a point of contact for the community
13:02 < gummibaerchen> what utc time is now? here it's 6o'clock
13:02 < berndl> siretart: thanks a lot. i'll read through that...
13:02 < juliux> gummibaerchen, date -u
13:02 <@jono> although I am employed by Canonical, I am ultimately judged by the community itself
13:03 <@jono> as an example, when I started, even though I went through four interviews over a month, I still needed to apply for ubuntu membership
13:03 <@jono> working for canonical does secure me shortcuts or anything like that, the community is the judge
13:03 <@jono> this is quite deliberate, the community is central to ubuntu and central to canonical, and we have built an incredible community together
13:04 <@jono> the fact we have 332 people in here is testement to what our community is capable of doing
13:04 <@jono> every community needs rules and governance that determines how it works
13:04 <@jono> the ubuntu community is no different
13:05 <@jono> <daxelrod> QUESTION: (Feel free to let questions queue up until you're ready): What do you mean by "community"? Anyone who uses Ubuntu, or just those who develop it?
13:05 <@jono> I am determining community as everyone in the ubuntu ecosystem - developers, users and anyone else
13:05 <@jono> so, we have some community structures, and right in the middle is the Code of Conduct
13:06 <@jono> this document species basic standards of practice that most decent people have innately, but it sets a standard for us
13:06 <@jono> although it is just words on a wiki page, the CoC has become a powerful document and a cornerstone of our community and one that is not used to judge people, but to set levels of how we work together
13:06 <@jono> in addition to that we have the Community Council
13:07 <@jono> the Community Council (CC) is a board of nominated contributors who decde on how the community is governed
13:07 <@jono> they do NOT have to be canonical people
13:07 <@jono> in fact, mako, who is on the board is not a canonical employee
13:07 <@jono> the CC make decisions on aspects of governance in the community
13:08 <@jono> as an example, recently there has been discussion of a Leadership Code of Conduct which outlines core standards of leadership
13:08 <@jono> that document would be accepted or denied by the CC
13:08 <@jono> we have also talked about sub-councils known as team councilc
13:08 <@jono> councils
13:09 <@jono> so, as an example, the forums would have their own council - they are a large sub-community inside ubuntu, and could do with a council to decide on issues in their domain
13:09 <@jono> another thing the CC decide on is ubuntu membership
13:09 <@jono> to be an acknowledged member of the ubuntu project, we ask that contributors go before the CC to apply for membership
13:10 <@jono> the CC then decide if that person is suitable to known as a member
13:10 <@jono> more on this in the becoming an ubuntu member session later in the week
13:10 <@jono> now, our community is hugely diverse
13:11 <@jono> we have lots of different areas in which people can get involved such as art, documentation, development, packaging etc, and we actively encourage participation in these areas
13:11 <@jono> we are keen that the ubuntu community does not suffer the same misinterpreation that other communities suffer - that only technical people can be a part of it
13:12 <@jono> each of our community efforts is broken into different teams, and each team is generally expected to have a mailing list, IRC channel, wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com and maybe a forum
13:12 < mattl> jono: what area could someone who is new to free software and new to GNU/Linux especially get involved with?
13:12 <@jono> I think people need to figure out what their skills are and decide how they can apply them
13:13 <@jono> so, if someone is a good artist, the art team would be a good choice, good communicators could join the doc or marketing teams
13:13 <@jono> <elvstone> QUESTION: What does beeing a member of the Ubuntu Project entail? What would my responsabilities be towards the Project? What makes this different from just beeing a user and contributor to the Ubuntu Project?
13:13 < mattl> is there a task list, as such? a list of opportunities?
13:13 < mako> mattl: there are more than one
13:13 < mako> Margaret wants to hack on the kernel that ships with Ubuntu, and she has already made a few patches, but she has some questions about the format. She needs to get in touch with the kernel maintainers, and she goes to the Participate page to find the relevant contact info, there is none, and she ends up sending the unfinished patches to the ubuntu-devel list instead.
13:13 <@jono> mattl, more on that in a bit ;)
13:13 < mako> sorry
13:13 < mako> paste error
13:13 < mako> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
13:13 < mako> that is the canonical(!) list
13:14 < mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
13:14 <@jono> elvstone, being an ubuntu means that you have performed a sustained and substantial contribution to the project
13:14 < mako> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu have other ideas
13:14 < elvstone> jono: ack.
13:14 <@jono> elvstone, we use ubuntu membership as a method of identifying which people are good strong contributors in the project
13:14 < mako> mattl: this is the plan to merge these together: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImprovingParticipatePage
13:14 <@jono> it is a useful yardstick for seperating out solid performers from people who just get a kick out of shouting on mailing lists
13:14 < mako> which, funnily enough might be a good way to contribute :)
13:15 < elvstone> jono: i see :)
13:15 <@jono> <Yawner> QUESTION: How has being employed by Canonical changed your ability to contribute to the Project?
13:16 <@jono> Yawner, not a huge amount - I am not going to deny that being employed by canonical means some people have more faith in you, because you have been through a pretty solid vetting process - but being employed does not buy any more rights with the community
13:16 < Yawner> aha ok, thanks
13:16 <@jono> I fundamentally needed to prove my worth to the community, but the community has been very open to my employment
13:17 < ivoks> hi akk
13:17 < ivoks> err all
13:17 < mattl> jono: the community loves you.
13:17 <@jono> <leetcharmer> QUESTION: Are there plans to make community involvement even easier?  Perhaps a GUI-based application that would gather information from launchpad that would integrate and help people get started with ease?
13:17 <@jono> mattl, :P
13:17 <@jono> leetcharmer, I have *lots* of plans
13:17 < mattl> i was being sincere!
13:17 <@jono> about this very issue
13:17 <@jono> mattl, :)
13:18 < leetcharmer> huzzah \0/
13:18 < leetcharmer> tell me :D
13:18 <@jono> one of the problems with free software communities is that the process of involvement follows this approx path:
13:18 <@jono> 1. someone decides they like free software and they want to help
13:18 <@jono> 2. the person looks at a list of possible teams and ways of contributing and tries to match their skills with a team
13:18 <@jono> 3. they join the tea,m
13:18 <@jono> now, at point (3) things can get shaky
13:18 < mattl> jono: i often have pockets of random spare time where i'm sitting with a laptop waiting for a train or a plane or something. be nice if i could use that time to do a microtask that would be useful to the community.
13:19 <@jono> in most scenarios joining a team involves being thrown in a deep end - a contribution to the team requires a fairly large investment of time and energy
13:19 <@jono> I am interested in lessening this investment and getting a win for the contributor sooner rather than later
13:20 <@jono> one plan is to have the concept of "bite size tasks" - a number of tasks for a team that are simple, trivial things to do, but offer a great first step into that team
13:20 < leetcharmer> That sounds exciting! How can this be made possible? How do you lessen the required amount of time?
13:20 < leetcharmer> oh! lawl, roite!
13:20 <@jono> I discussed this at the UDS and Allhands, and I am talking with some of the teams to do this in a consistant way, using tags in launchpad
13:20 < dsas> jono: Akin to the gnome-love bugs gnome use?
13:20 <@jono> the key thing is that bitesize tasks have plenty of feedback
13:20 <@jono> dsas, similar sort of thing
13:21 < Arby> any estimate when this will happen?
13:21 <@jono> we trialled this technique with the Jokosher community and it was very successfull
13:21 <@jono> Arby, I am hoping we can get something sorted over the next few months
13:21 < leetcharmer> excellent!
13:21 <@jono> I am also looking into other areas such as standarding documentation and providing better optimised ways of working
13:22 < finalbeta> I like the tasks idea, would be great for independent coders such as myself to help out when the have some time.
13:22 < leetcharmer> So, step one is to figure a way to get bite-sized tasks ... what about the actual user experience though?  Making it user friendly enough that novices to even computers could start, right away?
13:22 <@jono> I trialled some of my ideas with the LoCo team, and it seemed to work pretty well - developing consistancy, documentation, improving team relations etc
13:22 <@jono> leetcharmer, the actual user experience is where good feedback from the team needs to come in
13:23 <@jono> it is difficult to write rules to dictate how communities work - it is instead about best practice and learning from our peers
13:23 < mattl> jono: can you give an example of a task?
13:23 <@jono> mattl, as an example, it may be a packaging bug
13:23 < dsas> jono: There was an effort within the desktop team to manage that, with the more experienced members tagging things with  the 'ubuntulove' and others picking up on the tasks.
13:23 <@jono> dsas, exactly, we need a consistant project way of doing this
13:24 <@jono> so yeah, expect more on this soon =P
13:24 < leetcharmer> Example: let's say I have no development computer skills what-so-ever, except for using them and good writing skills -- I'd like to write documentation ... can I click a program, pick a category I'd like to help out -> documentation, pop in some tags and get started and upload?
13:24 < leetcharmer> That would be nice :D
13:24 <@jono> other projects include mentoring (trialled with a LoCo pilot), documenting best practice, events and more
13:24 <@jono> leetcharmer, thats a good idea, but further down the line
13:24 <@jono> I don;t think the issue here is an interface issue, it is a process issue
13:24 <@jono> <emonkey-p> QUESTION: jono: you're Community Manager only for Ubuntu or general for all *buntu Distros too? (like kubuntu)
13:25 < mattl> task based documentation is pretty useful. any way a user could make documentation by simply using the program? ie. it records the menu clicks to a file and lets them write some text around what they just did?
13:25 <@jono> emonkey-p, althougn my job title is Ubuntu Community Manager, I am here to help all aspects of the community where I can, and I have worked with Kubuntu, Launchpad, Ubuntu, Edubuntu and various others
13:25 <@jono> <nmsa> Q: jono: are you working with loco teams? does your are include them? how? 'thnx
13:26 <@jono> nmsa, when I joined, I identified loco teams as a key part of the community
13:26 <@jono> I have spent quite a lot of time working with locos
13:26 < pepsiman> leetcharmer: ubuntu docs are going to be maintained in the wiki
13:26 <@jono> y'know, its interesting, when I started there were lots of locos, but noone talked to each other
13:26 <@jono> each team was its own little independent unit
13:27 <@jono> I wanted to first get people talking to each other - we are a community and our biggest strength is how we communicate and learn from each other
13:27 <@jono> so I revived loco-contacts and encouraged people to talk to each other
13:27 < leetcharmer> pepsiman, then I would like to request a program that reads from the wiki and would let you write from an interface, to streamline things easier rather than through web
13:27 <@jono> I also encouraged teams to share their experience, stories and other tips to figure out how to best run the teams
13:28 < LaserJock> pepsiman: that's not entirely correct, but there is a lot of documentation on the wiki
13:28 <@jono> another issue was the sparse and badly organised documentation, so I tidied up the wiki, added a consistant menu bar, created a knowledge base, encouraged teams to contribute docs and formed regular meetings
13:28 <@jono> finally, I worked to help improve the process of how loco teams are approved
13:29 <@jono> in the ubuntu project there are two types of team - new and approved - approved teams are the equivilent of ubuntu members, but for teams - teams that we know work well
13:29 <@jono> and recently I have been working on some ideas to unify loco resources in launchpad
13:29 <@jono> one of the problems we have with teams right now is that teams are spending too much time messing around with setting up websites, planets and user maps, and not spending their time teambuilding
13:30 <@jono> I want to reduce this resource based time, make things easier to set up, and get teams to concentrate on *making great teams*
13:30 <@jono> y'know, we have loco teams in nearly every single country in the world
13:30 < Circus-Killer> thats one thing our loco team is strugglinh with
13:30 <@jono> and on the loco mailing lists we have *over* 10,000 subscribers
13:30 <@jono> we have an incredible backbone here, and I am keen to see it get better
13:30 < tonyyarusso> jono: Does that mean a unified, available framework for things like websites, planets, and maps that teams can just plug stuff into a template for?
13:30 <@jono> Circus-Killer, ping me later and we can discuss it
13:31 < mattl> jono: how useful is a loco team for a large country? wouldn't a city based or region based loco be better?
13:31 <@jono> tonyyarusso, the idea is that a planet, website, user map etc should just be able to be "flipped on" - with a consistant look and feel - I would like to see people contentrate on "content" and not infrastructure
13:31 <@jono> mattl, this is an issue
13:32 <@jono> for some countries we divide it
13:32 <@jono> for the USA, loco teams are at a state level
13:32 <@jono> but for some places it is a country level
13:32 < mattl> at what point does a Loco be more like a GLUG?
13:32 < SimonAnibal> jono, what do you mean by "team building"?
13:32 < tonyyarusso> jono: But what is being done to make that the case?  Do we have something in place for new locos to click the "turn on" button?
13:33 <@jono> mattl, they have different purposes in many ways - lugs are often places where people (a) meet up (b) get support and (c) talk about a range of issues - locos are primarily advocacy and translations vehicles for the ubuntu community
13:33 < mattl> do you see a loco as a group of people who go to LUGs and spread the ubuntu love?
13:33 <@jono> SimonAnibal, the real value in a team is how people work together, organise themselves and get stuff done - I want to see more of that and less debate about whether to use drupal or plone :P
13:34 < mattl> heh.
13:34 <@jono> tonyyarusso, there was a spec at the UDS about this, and some additions to launchpad are being discussed
13:34 < mattl> phpnuke, surely?
13:34 <@jono> mattl, can you post questions in -caht
13:34 <@jono> -chat
13:34 <@jono> <juliux> QUESTION: is there a plan to have something like the gnome foundation that leads the project?
13:35 <@jono> juliux, we do have the ubuntu foundation, but is primarily a fund which would kick in if canonical or mark was to go away
13:35 <@jono> right now there seems little need for foundation in my own view
13:35 < juliux> jono, i mean from the community side
13:35 <@jono> I think we want to get away from making more and more governance infrastructure and spend more time *doing stuff*
13:36 <@jono> juliux, the community council is the governance infrastructure there
13:36 <@jono> <Ng> QUESTION: How do we grow a rocking beard like yours?
13:36 <@jono> Ng, its tough, but it takes down, shampoo and condition every day
13:36 <@jono> <nmsa> Q: jono: again, sorry, are you working with loco teams? does your area include them? how? 'thnx
13:36 < Admiral_Chicago> jono: but don't you see a practical application for approved teams to have planets? it seems having a unified point of communication (that maybe isn't IRC) is a useful thing.
13:36 <@jono> I do indeed, I help the UK team
13:37 <@jono> Admiral_Chicago, exactly - I am keen to get more perks for approved teams
13:37 < Admiral_Chicago> jono: good to hear, can you talk briefly on mailing lists in general and their use?
13:37 <@jono> Admiral_Chicago, we can rely on those teams, and there has been discussion about sending out event kits to them, using them for more formal events, providing these teams with additional help and we also send edgy cds to approved teams
13:38 <@jono> Admiral_Chicago, what do you mean about lists?
13:38 <@jono> <gummibaerchen> Q: Who decide who leads the LoCo Teams?
13:38 <@jono> gummibaerchen,  it varies - not all teams need leaders
13:38 < Admiral_Chicago> jono: for example, mailing list being used for support requests, pro/cons of having a mailing list
13:39 <@jono> usually the person who founds the team often leads it, some teams have elections and some have informal methods of voting people in
13:39 < gummibaerchen> jono: But I mean the leader in Launchpad for example.
13:39 <@jono> Admiral_Chicago, mailing lists are essential for all teams, but I always recommend that with a new team to stick with a single list
13:39 < gummibaerchen> Who gave them their rights?
13:39 < Admiral_Chicago> gummibaerchen: for example, Chicago LoCo does not have a leader, we decided we don't need one. we have a main contact (nixternal) but he isn't an established leader
13:39 <@jono> gummibaerchen, eh?
13:40 <@jono> Admiral_Chicago, as an example, when people set up discussion forums, a lot of people add 10 sub-forums
13:40 < LaserJock> gummibaerchen: when somebody creates a team in Launchpad they are the owner
13:40 <@jono> and there is a temptation for people to split out across lots of lists
13:40 < popey> wik/win 44
13:40 < Smiffeh> jono: as community manager what sort of relationship do you have with the marketing team?
13:40 < popey> eek
13:40 < popey> sorry
13:40 <@jono> I always recommend that communication is kept to single list or forum - it helps everyone see each other
13:41 <@jono> Smiffeh, I am beginning to work with the marketing team and had a discussion with corey last night about it
13:41 <@jono> I am also developing processes to improve how the canonical marketing team and the community marketing team works together
13:41 < Smiffeh> and what conclusions are you reaching about the direction they should take?
13:41 < Admiral_Chicago> ah i see, speaking as a spam killer, i know the mailing lists get spam often, I usually go in once a day and approve / deny the appropriate emails, i see this as a con to having mailing list
13:41 < Admiral_Chicago> they have a certain level of maintainanc
13:42 <@jono> Smiffeh, I have views on the marketing team - I think we need to use the marketing team as a central to push stuff out of the community  - right now the marketing team does to much inter-ubuntu-community marketing - I would like to see other teams (such as loco teams) feed the marketing team with content and then the expertise of the marketing team can push and promote that information
13:42 <@jono> <somerville32> QUESTION: What role do you play in the communities of the Ubuntu sister projects like Xubuntu or Kubuntu? Do you have any plans/goals for these projects?
13:43 <@jono> somerville32, I covered this a bit earlier, I am here to help with their community building in the same way I do for ubuntu - my door is always open to people who need help
13:43 < somerville32> :)
13:43 <@jono> <fafek2> QUESTION: Don't you think Ubuntu community is somewhat careless? I mean posting bug reports and feature request in many other places like forums instead of Launchpad; grumbling about some lack in Ubuntu on personal blogs, instead of writing clear specification and so on...
13:44 <@jono> fafek2, sure, there is lots of misguided work, but that is not solvable with a quick fix - it relies on good solid examples being set by key community figures, and good processes
13:44 <@jono> I think we can improve things in many areas by developing these processes
13:44 <@jono> let me be 100% clear here with my intentions
13:44 <@jono> I want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action
13:45 <@jono> we have all the right ingredients, we have all the potential, we just need to fix some things to improve our community
13:45 <@jono> this is not about me telling people what to do, but about me coming up with ideas and suggestions that do not disrupt workflow but make things better
13:45 < fafek2> Maybe Ubuntu Forums moderators could be more determined?
13:46 <@jono> right now, I am going after low-hanging fruit - easy wins that will reap a great return on community productivity
13:46 <@jono> fafek2, thats a seperate issue
13:46 <@jono> <somerville32> QUESTION: Whats the best way to get in contact with you?
13:46 <@jono> well, I live on IRC during the days (around 8.30am - 6pm UTC) and I can also be gotten in touch at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
13:47 <@jono> I also blog a lot at jonobacon.org
13:47 < Smiffeh> jono: do you feel marketing should be working to attract a non-technical audience to Ubuntu to try and begin to dispel the "linux is not suitable for the desktop" myth
13:47 < l> awesome!!
13:47 <@jono> Smiffeh, yes indeed
13:47 < tsmithe> Smiffeh, arent they already?
13:48 < bhale> questions in -chat guys
13:48 <@jono> Smiffeh, marketing is a multi-faceted approach - we need to approach different demographics with a consistant message - education, non-techical users, developers, charities - they are all ripe pickings :)
13:48 <@jono> <LoudMouthMan> QUESTION: What mechanisms/oversight do you feel may be needed to avoid people sitting around deciding to be "the peoples front of judea" or " the judean peoples front ", navel gazing in other words.
13:48 <@jono> LoudMouthMan, whingers will always whinge
13:48 <@jono> personally, I am not interested in talking to whingers
13:48 < Smiffeh> From what i have seen so far they seem to be promoting the distro's activities in channels that appeal more to the technical usership.
13:49 <@jono> I am not interested in providing people with blog fodder
13:49 < bhale> Smiffeh: if you think other channels need to be targetted you could be the newest member of the marketing team
13:49 <@jono> I am interesting in making our community have a standard of "can do" - I personally can't stand people who do nothing but complain, bemoan and otherwise feedback over things they can actually change
13:50 <@jono> this entire free software landscape is mouldable, changable and has the ability to be bettered in every way
13:50 <@jono> this is why I always try to encourage people to do stuff, then discuss
13:50 <@jono> too many contributors start out by setting up a mailing list, svn server, website and such and then spend six months discussing thing they will ultimately never do
13:50 <@jono> I always say "do it, and then discuss it"
13:51 < LaserJock> \o/
13:51 <@jono> we need to get into a habit of making stuff happen
13:51 <@jono> gummibaerchen> QUESTION: Is it possible that gives up it's Debian Base?
13:51 <@jono> gummibaerchen,  what does?
13:51 < MacSlow> jono, pretty good stance there!
13:51 <@jono> ok lots of questions, not enough time
13:51 <@jono> gonna pick and choose what has not been covered
13:51 < MacSlow> jono, I fully agree with this attitude
13:52 <@jono> <levander> QUESTION: Why not merge the Loco's and LUG's so that a Loco is basically a "department" inside the local LUG?  Just seems like more cross-traffic between the two that way.
13:52 <@jono> I don't think it works that way - the two are incompatible at level - they are different types of groups that should intead work together to achieve common goals
13:53 <@jono> <tonyyarusso> QUESTION: One issue the marketing team has atm is that Canonical wants to be the only one writing press releases, but isn't doing any for the non-tech community.  Does your interfacing w/Canonical and that team include dealing with things like that?
13:54 <@jono> tonyyarusso, indeed - as part of my Canonical/Community work I am trying to improve relations so we can work together on things like this - I am booking meetings with the business development team at canonical to improve on these issues
13:54 <@jono> <mattl> QUESTION:  If you want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action (and it's something I would love to see happen!) - how do we begin to expel proprietary software from Ubuntu so it can live up to that?
13:54 < tonyyarusso> jono: awesome.  Looking forward to results of those.
13:56 <@jono> mattl, speaking personally, I am not interested in taking away choice from the user - I want to help to provide a solid free software Operating System, but I am also open to the fact that people may choose to run proprietary software on it - that it their choice - personally I don't feel freedom includes the right to remove choice - but I do believe we need to make Ubuntu a solid free software base in which people can use it fo
13:56 <@jono> r what they like - this is a big issue, and one I have a blog post lined up for next week
13:56 < _ubu> jono you can't expell propriety software
13:56 < sabdfl> can I chip in?
13:56 <@jono> sabdfl, sure
13:56 < sabdfl> mattl: Ubuntu has never been free-software-only, top to bottom
13:56 < _ubu> unless you you come up withan alternative to flash, win32 codecs and the lot...
13:57 < sabdfl> we have since the beginning included some proprietary drivers, for example, for wifi
13:57 < sabdfl> it has, I think, always been possible to install Ubuntu without those pieces
13:57 < sabdfl> they are in a specific place in the distro, called "restricted", so they are easy to identify and purge
13:57 < sabdfl> and distros like gNewSense are basically ubuntu without those pieces
13:57 < leetcharmer> alternatively -- there is now also gnuSense which ... man, he's one step ahead of me.
13:58 <@jono> right
13:58 <@jono> well I think our time is up
13:58 < sabdfl> in addition, we have also made packages of proprietary software available, just not accessible by default
13:58 < mattl> we can't tell people to not install things... however, we can not distribute them.
13:58 < mattl> if people want Flash, Win32Codecs or Opera, they will get it.
13:58 <@jono> thanks for the excellent questions, I wish I could have got through more
13:58 < somerville32> Thanks Jono! :)
13:58 < juliux> thanks jono
13:58 < mattl> but I think Ubuntu could set the bar by saying they won't distribute them.
13:58 < sabdfl> mattl: my point is that this has always been the case - at our very first face to face meeting we decided to allow firmware, and binary drivers, just not proprietary apps
13:59 <@jono> I think I will open up the session on wednesday at 5pm UTC with Q+A so do come back then :)
13:59 < leetcharmer> it's cool .. thanks jono bacon :D I look forward to Jokosher!
13:59 < somerville32> Jono: If you ever need a hand, I'm always happy to help with stuff! :)
13:59 <@jono> oops 6pm rather
13:59 < emonkey-p> jono, thx for this talk, it was a pleasure and I'm sure we'll talk soon about several things :)
13:59 < Joe_CoT> even if you wanted a completely free Ubuntu, shipping it without proprietary software alienates people. it causes wifi cards not to work, video cards to be unsupported, etc. you can't install the binary wifi driver if you have no internet ;-/
13:59 <@jono> thanks folks, take care!
13:59 < sabdfl> our goal is to get free software as widely used and tested and loved as possible
13:59 < sabdfl> and we do compromise in order to get it installed and fully using the hardware
13:59 < _ubu> I agree with Joe_cot
14:00 < sabdfl> gNewSense takes a strong line, try that if it's what you want
14:00 < sabdfl> Debian says no to binary drivers but yes to firmware, which IMO is the same thing
14:00 < mattl> sabdfl: i think that compromise is an unfortunate one, and i feel the message from Ubuntu is a confusing one.
14:00 < mattl> sabdfl: agreed that firmwares and drivers are the same.
14:00 < sabdfl> mattl: noted
14:00 < sabdfl> thanks jono
14:01 <@jono> sabdfl, np, thanks for your comments too
14:01 < MacSlow> jono, tomorrow your session on "how to become a member" starts at 15:00 GMT ?!
14:01 < mattl> sabdfl: when you say If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.” - i think that's a great statement, but i don't think it's true. if there are binary blobs and binary drivers by default?
14:01 < somerville32> Can I ask one last quick question, Jono?
14:01 < leetcharmer> sabdfl, If I wanted to become an entrepreneur, resulting in helping out many people -- what type of work would I do?
14:02 <@jono> somerville32, /msg me
14:02 < sabdfl> mattl: yes, its true that ubuntu is not without controversy, i was not suggesting ubuntu is perfect
14:02 < jordi> next in the classroom is Rosetta!
14:02 <@jono> MacSlow, yep
14:02 < sabdfl> but i think our approach is clear, is well known, and does not create very dangerous situations for other developers, which is what i am objecting to in the novell-msft pact